You
are not a monk
There are very good reasons why monks live in the
conditions that they live in. Keep this in mind as you practice.
Have a nice day!
Can you expand on this thought? I don't know what
you are really getting at
It just means that we should approach and practice
the Dharma like the lay people that we are, living in the lay world that we
live in.
Monks practice in very controlled environments so
we should keep in mind that our environment is everything but controlled or
controllable.
Basically, be kind and patient with yourself as you
practice.
What differences are there in approach and
practice?
This is purely anecdotal but I often beat myself
into submission for not being able to respond “like a monk would” in certain
situations. Being surrounded by people who haven’t even heard of the Dharma let
alone practicing it is just a very tough environment to practice the Dharma in
so the kindness to “self” is all the more important lest you feel like you’re
drowning.
Of course this post is just my projection of a
lesson that I recently learnt.
level
5
180 points·4 days ago
Soṇa Sutta: https://suttacentral.net/an6.55/en/sujato
“What do you think, Soṇa? When you were
still a layman, weren’t you a good harp player?”
“Yes, sir.”
“When your harp’s strings were tuned
too tight, was it resonant and playable?”
“No, sir.”
“When your harp’s strings were tuned
too slack, was it resonant and playable?”
“No, sir.”
“But when your harp’s strings were
tuned neither too tight nor too slack, but fixed at an even tension, was it
resonant and playable?”
“Yes, sir.”
“In the same way, Soṇa, when energy is
too forceful it leads to restlessness. When energy is too slack it leads to
laziness. So, Soṇa, you should apply yourself to energy and serenity, find a
balance of the faculties, and learn the pattern of this situation.”
Moral of the story: Don’t be too harsh on yourself.
But also, don’t be too slack.
level
6
I like this thank you
level
5
17 points·4 days ago
I don't know where I heard of this exactly, but
some traditions (not necessarily Buddhistic) say that a life lived within the
world, with all its chaos is much more difficult, and sometimes more valuable
than the life of a monk. Of course the life of a monk is valuable in its own
way, and has its own goals, but I like the sentiment.
level
6
4 points·4 days ago
Oh that's interesting (although I can't say I agree
personally that my life is harder than a monk's, haha) I'd be grateful if
someone knew the source for this-- I'd like to read more!
level
7
3 points·3 days ago·edited 3 days ago
I can’t find the exact reference but will share if
I do, I think it was within the context of a saying attributed to the prophet
in Islam, but I can’t be sure, maybe it was somewhere else, kind of forgetting,
since I encountered it when I was barely in my early teens. Lol, yes, life of a
monk is not always easy, but in certain ways, especially if one has to go out
and overcome some life challenges, life of a layperson can be harder, example,
living within the context of possible confrontations with people, societies,
with one's own demons, and the internal and external chaos of living an ethical
life within all of that, that can be hard. And these struggles can lead to some
extremely powerful insights, growth and spiritual evolution, which is a
blessing in its own way.
level
7
2 points·3 days ago
Your life is your Karma and your Dharma. The monk's
life is their Dharma. We are all where we need to be to learn what we need to
learn.
level
6
3 points·4 days ago
I agree. Participate at a secluded temple. Chop
wood in a small town. Have some drinks and sing horribly at a bar in a big
city. Stay honest, do it all, learn everything.
level
5
7 points·4 days ago
Base your practice on the best and only starting
place. You. Start with where you are now. If you don't know, self examination
will help you clarify. You know you better than anyone else can, you will
instinctually know what will work best with your personality and predilections.
Expand your practice out based on what you learn about yourself and what you
find works for you. There is no pat answers, though pat answers can get you
started and provide a foundation for your own insights... trust your gut.
level
6
2 points·4 days ago
So well said. Totally awesome
level
5
3 points·4 days ago
Thank you. It’s good to remind ourselves of this.
level
5
3 points·3 days ago
The best place you have to practice is the place
you are, sometimes it is the obstacles that we perceive in front of us that
offer us the best insight into the places that need healing. If you can see
difficult situations as learning experiences then you will surely learn very
fast even in a none monastic environments. My teacher always said the hustle
and bustle of a city can be a fantastic place to learn as well. I personally
sometimes think about getting away from it all to focus only on Dharma but It
doesn't really matter where I go to because I will take my mind with me
anywhere I go and that's where the problems are.
level
6
0 points·3 days ago
The problem with the lay world is that you’re
dealing with your problems and other people’s problems as well. Until your own
mind is liberated then you will see your problems through everyone’s problems
as well. You even beg everyone to lay their problems on you when you practice!
And as soon as they realise that you’re capable of handling even a little bit
of their problems they just lay all of them on you! It’s tough. Not impossible,
but holding yourself to the same high standard as monks will only lead to you
being harsh not only on yourself but also to those around you with problems,
I.e. everyone. That’s been my experience, at least.
level
7
2 points·3 days ago
Yes I do completely empathize with you, if you can
try to transform problems as just opportunity for growth, then you can normally
deal with them more skillfully though. When we talk about a monk though I don't
think he is defined by the robes he wears and where he is located, but the
state of mind that can be achieved. It's true that we are not a Buddha and
accepting our limitations is important, thinking to ourselves if we were a
Buddha we would know what to do but today we are not, sometimes friends just
want us to listen and that is enough sometimes. You aren't going to end
samsara's suffering with a wave of your hand
level
8
1 point·3 days ago
You are right!
level
4
2 points·3 days ago
I think the main difference is that a monk works
24/7 on their mindfulness and enlightenment. That is their only goal. We, as
laypeople, try to work this practice into our lives, but we also go to work,
have spouses and families, etc. If one really wants to reach enlightenment more
quickly, the monastic path is the way to go, but for most this is not likely.
Therefore, we are not going to respond to life as a Buddhist monk would.
There's nothing wrong with either path, but we should not compare ourselves or,
more specifically, judge ourselves for not being monk-like in all of our
affairs.
level
3
You're not totally wrong, but the monastery isn't
"controlled" by itself, it's controlled in large part by the lay
community and the monks themselves. The monks maintain the monastery with the
the monastic code - which they have voluntarily undertaken - and the laypeople
similarly maintain it with their generosity. In other words, it is controlled
by their own efforts. If they didn't exert any efforts then the monastery would
certainly seem uncontrollable because it would likely be a pigsty, but it would
not be correct to say that it is uncontrollable.
As laypeople our daily lives may indeed be
influenced by society around us (not always for the better), but that doesn't
mean it's all out of our control. We can keep our living space clean, we can
work within our constraints to create a rhythm of practice. We may not be able
to do it exactly like the
monks, but we can learn from their way of living and see how to bring it into
our own lives in a way that is skillful. As humans seeking to follow the path,
we can put forth the effort necessary to align our lives with it. It's not
impossible. Kindness is necessary, but saying we have no control isn't helpful
at all.
level
4
6 points·4 days ago
I was referring more specifically to the other egos
in the room, not the room itself.
level
5
6 points·4 days ago
I had a friend who spent some time at monastery...
and they routinely taught visitors (for group retreat with the residents) that
just because someone put on robes doesn't mean they have attainments. It just
means they are living in a scenario where the motivation is to, eventually,
remove suffering. It's still a long journey and egos will be there for quite a
while with or without robes.
level
6
Members of the Sangha run the gamut of personality
types, but that being said I generally find them to be much more decent, kind,
tolerant, and compassionate than the general public.
Within a temple or monastery, you actually have to
go out of your way to break precepts, whereas in the secular world it is much
harder to guard your thoughts and actions.
level
7
4 points·3 days ago·edited 3 days ago
Harder, not impossible. Easier isn't necessarily
better. There probably shouldn't be judgement made, or differences argued. It's
fruitless to do so. It doesn't matter. Self discipline is possible under any
circumstances. The effort is just as noble be it in monastery or household
life. The Sangha and the household are meant to enhance eachother, not be
pitted in competition or judged to determine superior or inferior merit.
Neither are 'easy'. People are different and approach their paths differently.
It is not for us to compare, but to support. Being nice isn't necessarily the
point either, internalizing the truth of the Dharma is. You can't understand
someone else's workings merely by judging how 'nice' they are. In the stories,
monks and teachers have been quite brutally direct in using 'skillful means' to
express the Truth. No one is nice all the time, nor is their intent to 'not' be
nice necessarily true to your interpretation of it, your interpretation of
others 'niceness' or lack thereof may be incorrect. You can't see inside
someone. The nicest people can be enlightened or complete dolts, goes for the
seemingly rude as well. In either case, we give support not judgment no matter
where we find others on their path. Take responsibility for your own feelings,
whether you are confronted with 'niceness from others or not. Our concern is
our own path first, our own mental/emotional state, helping when we can, but
perfecting ourselves firstly, we may be able to guide others, or maybe not. In
the end it's up to them, not outside observers to do so...and for us not to
judge, but support when appropriate. We are all fragile and inconsistent at
some point, and falter. Being constantly nice isn't always going to happen.
Perfect yourself before you judge others. In that case, if you haven't
perfected yourself yet, you will not judge others. If you have perfected
yourself, you won't feel the egoistic need to judge others. You would only give
support out of compassion. That's all.
level
4
2 points·4 days ago
Completely agree
level
3
3 points·4 days ago
This is honestly an incredible reminder.
level
3
3 points·4 days ago
We have to be careful with "kind" and
"patient" thoughts of self though. Keep in mind to not let them get
in the way of truth. We sometimes quickly dismiss the negativity of the mind
and spirit with terms like these as a quick fix, preventing us from seeing the
things that are holding us back for what they really are, in their entirety.
You can only build a house really well once you fully understand everything
that goes into it, your tools, the land you build on, the local laws of
building, everything. Kindness and patience flow naturally and with no effort
once you are completely honest, selfless, and want to know the true way of all
things.
level
4
2 points·3 days ago
Anyone can build a house. Even my 5 year old son
builds houses out of paper all the time. The problem is expecting the first or
even 10th house you build to be a perfect house and then beating yourself up
when it’s not perfect. Beat yourself up enough times and you’re likely to rebel
against yourself. This is why kindness and patience towards yourself are
important.
level
5
2 points·3 days ago
Completely agree....the only way to get good at
something is through practice. Definitely don't think negatively towards
yourself through progress, look at objectively and see that there is a better
way, until there isnt.
level
6
3 points·3 days ago
Actually, I dont agree with anyone can build a
house.
level
7
2 points·2 days ago
A little bit of doubt is not necessarily a bad
thing.
level
8
2 points·2 days ago
Yes! It doesn't have to be a negative process,
right? I've experienced that "doubt" is this sort of gut feeling,
knowing that I want to seek answers and truth behind something, but haven't
really seen what the question is yet. It's a great jumping off point, gets the
creative storm firing. I think it's a natural tell-tale that something isn't
sitting right with my spirit or morals. I feel it's important to embrace and
follow this feeling. I struggled with this having negative thought and feeling
when I was younger, but was able to change my perspective to seeing it objectively;
removing personal feelings and thoughts towards it- just seeking truth in the
matter. Positive results have followed putting this into practice. High five to
doubt. What a wonderful instinct.
level
3
3 points·3 days ago
Lay practitioners should wear internal robes.
Keep the vows we have taken and do everything
perfectly.
level
4
1 point·3 days ago
And if we don’t do everything perfectly?
level
3
3 points·4 days ago
Why would a monk not be on reddit?
level
4
2 points·4 days ago
Some might try to get the dust out their eyes,
hands and mind, perhaps.
level
5
2 points·4 days ago
My student who is a monk accesses the internet
level
6
4 points·4 days ago
That's great
level
2
10 points·4 days ago
Well for one, you likely have a job, pay for a
house, possibly but car insurance, and buy food. I doubt you submit yourself to
poverty and rely on the goodness of others for each meal.
It’s a lot easier to find your zen without all this
stress, and anyone who took a few months off work but was still paid during
quarantine could attest.
level
3
2 points·4 days ago
If the entire world became monks or nuns or
something similar, from whom would they get their food?
level
4
Not the goal of buddhism or OP to make everyone in
the world become monk or nun.
level
5
2 points·3 days ago
Yes this is something I've thought about a lot
recently. If everyone becomes a buddhist monk, there goes modern medicine and
modern day engineering, and modern day economics... the list goes on. Wouldn't
it be counter productive if everyone on earth became a buddhist monk? Care to
elaborate?
level
6
What else you want to be elaborated?
Tibet is the ideal country to study where a
significant % of the population becomes monk. You can study how they are doing.
The natural state is: some (maybe most) people are
just not ready. So no point forcing them to monkhood, they might break some
parajika and got kicked out anyway. Better to remain as lay person.
Besides, if everyone renounces, within one
generation, Buddhism ended in human world. No more reproduction. No need to
think so far.
But that's not the reason we don't encourage
everyone to become monk/nuns. We encourage all the way. It's just that we know
naturally that most people will not renounce anyway, and it's the rare few who
will. So we need to encourage those rare few, and cultivate more and more
people to renounce. If 10% of the world's population becomes buddhist monk/nun,
it's wonderful! 9 out of 10 people in the world will have personal access to
their own teacher to teach them morality.
Just look at so many dhamma desserts from many
people who wants to seek for nearby dhamma centre. We need more monks and nuns.
level
4
3 points·4 days ago
Exactly. This is why the goal of every Buddhist is
not to be a monk. And the goal of the monk is to demonstrate perfect peace. And
the goal of the man with a job is to learn to give what he has earned for
another’s benefit by donating to the monastery. And yet, each man is a
Buddhist.
level
5
2 points·3 days ago
What’s the point of demonstrating perfect peace if
it is not feasible on a mass scale?
level
6
2 points·3 days ago
To know it is possible. To see the sacrifice it
takes to achieve it. To acknowledge our own shortcomings. To experience
humility.
level
7
1 point·2 days ago
Sure, but the rest of live in the real world, so
wouldn't a better monk be someone who can achieve that whilst living in the
real world? All they have demonstrated is that if you set up an artificial
situation, that it is perhaps possible.
level
8
1 point·2 days ago
Firstly, who are we to determine which world is
real? There are Amish people in the US, indigenous tribespeople in Africa and
South America, and multiple other groups that remove themselves from the
capitalistic fray for a variety of reasons.
Secondly the entire idea behind monks/nuns of any
religion is the sacrifice of withdrawing from main societal functions in order
to dedicate all of oneself to spiritual growth and enlightenment. Monks/nuns
don’t marry. They are celibate. They don’t produce children. They take a vow of
poverty. They help others.
This is not selective to Buddhism. Many religions
require or suggest that their religious leaders lead similar lives of exclusion
from the secular in order to have the spiritual strength to serve others.
You must accept that there are many paths to
enlightenment. Not every path is for every person. Nor should every person take
the same path.
level
9
1 point·1 day ago
But how are they helping others? You can’t help
someone to reach enlightenment, that person surely has to take their own path
and can’t be helped?
It seems to me like a bit of a selfish isolated
ideal, and if they’re “locked away” in a temple/convent/monastery, how does
that help anyone. If they offered a counselling and guidance service then I
could perhaps understand.
level
10
1 point·1 day ago
I’ve already answered all your questions. You are
asking the same ones again. You have already decided what you believe.
level
10
1 point·1 day ago
Maybe the monks are the only ones living in the
real world. we could be nothing more than a reminder to the monks of how far
man can go from god before he looks back. We are a warning to monks if why they
must live the way the do. To avoid destroying the planet, and being corrupted
with greed and lust, they must be ever vigilant to avoid being dragged into
your world.
level
4
5 points·4 days ago
I think you underestimate how much we like our sex,
drugs and rock'n roll and stuff. Everyone going monastic will never happen. It
is surely not for everyone and anyone.
level
2
2 points·4 days ago
Perhaps the point is to be kind to yourself and
don't compare yourself or your practice to others, including monastics. We all
have the same framework to work from...the 4NT8FNP. Don't expect perfection. You
are your greatest teacher. Just take it easy on yourself in the process.
level
1
I’ve tried to communicate this sentiment on this
sub before and it’s often taken very negatively. A lot of newcomers to Buddhism
become almost manic/obsessed with their practice. You’ll see questions like
“how can one follow the dharma while sleeping?”.
level
2
56 points·4 days ago·edited 4 days ago
"how can one follow the dharma while
sleeping?"
By sleeping well!
As my local Lama says: "Eat well, sleep well,
exercise, take care of yourself!"
level
3
This is priceless.
level
3
9 points·4 days ago
This is just good advice generally. People get too
obsessive about Buddhism and meditation and think that doing some spiritual
exercises will fix all their problems at once. Meditation isn't going to
improve your physical fitness.
level
2
I suspect part of it is born out of the enthusiasm
people have early in their practice when this is all new, magical, and seems to
be working where few other things have before. They want to immediately jump to
the end result and skip all the messy in-between stuff. I think a lot of us
have been there, I know I have.
level
3
6 points·4 days ago
One of my closest friends once said to me “no
teleportation allowed”. It has even become a sort of meme between us.
level
4
Oh I like that
level
3
2 points·3 days ago
And then there is the problem of desiring
enlightenment, which is still attachment. You can have everything as soon as
you do not care if you have it.
level
4
Yes and no :)
In the beginning, the desire for enlightenment is a
good thing because it motivates one to study and practice but, yes, eventually
you come to recognize that the very idea of desiring enlightenment is a silly
one and you abandon it.
level
2
I spent a month living as a nun in a monastic
program in Fujian, China. It is NOT for the faint of heart.
level
3
You should do an AMA for this sub!
level
4
I’ll post an AMA about the monastic program
tomorrow!
level
4
4 points·4 days ago
I second this!
level
5
1 point·4 days ago
Thirded!
level
3
5 points·4 days ago
I would really be interested in hearing about that!
Was it harsh as in hard to get accustomed to essentially meditating all day? Or
was it harsh in that it was a lot of hard labor maintaining the monastery? I'm
very curious about it, and if you feel you benefitted from your time there!
level
3
Well done. I've done monastic style retreats up to
a week and they are honestly the hardest things I have ever done.
Definitely not for the faint of heart. That's why I
have the utmost respect and admiration of the Sangha. Living that lifestyle
everyday in perpetuity is an amazing act of renunciation and austerity.
level
3
2 points·4 days ago
Woodenfish?
level
4
Yes sir!
level
5
2 points·4 days ago
Thought so. I went back in 2013 during their first
year on mainland China. The politics of it were more harrowing than the actual
monastic experience back then.
level
6
2 points·3 days ago
What does this mean? I considered applying once. Is
it not a good program?
level
7
2 points·3 days ago
It was a fine program, but in 2013 we ended up
moving provinces two days into the program as a result of some kind of conflict
with the local government regarding our presence in the original monastery. It
was quite an ... adventure let's say.
My understanding is that in subsequent iteration of
the program the kinks have been worked out and now the experience is smooth
sailing and above board.
level
2
15 points·4 days ago
I feel that. A lot of Buddhists get really into it
and I feel kind of repulse people who don’t feel likewise away from Buddhism.
Life’s difficult. The last few years of my life have been horrible. But talking
to Buddhists online about it, I see less real advice and more of what felt like
shaming me for not being a perfect Buddhist. I couldn’t respond like a monk to
those bad situations: homelessness, never sleeping, abuse, toxic factory jobs.
I don’t live in Plum Village, or even, say, Portland. That’s just my
prospective though. I wish Western Buddhism was open to more people and
experiences, but maybe I’m getting off topic.
level
3
5 points·4 days ago
Take the bashing from whence it comes. We all
project what’s going on inside our minds and if we are hard on ourselves for
not being “the perfect Buddhist” then naturally we will be hard on others as
well. Your post is 100% on-topic.
level
2
10 points·4 days ago
Like with any religion, nothing can be fiercer than
the zeal of the convert. I like the sentiment of the OP - we need to be kind to
ourselves no matter what religion we practice.
level
2
13 points·4 days ago
Bro just put your beggar’s bowl under your pillow
bro trust me bro
level
2
8 points·4 days ago
It also feeds into an unhelpful stereotype about
Buddhism, that puts off many Westerners.
I don’t know how many times I‘ve read a post that’s
a version of “I’d like to try Buddhism, but what if I don’t want to give up my
relationship/ college plans/ enjoying concerts.”
level
3
Couldn’t agree more. There is a disconnect between
a western perception of Buddhism and Buddhism in reality. My sister is a
vegetarian and was shocked when she visited Thailand and Cambodia. Everyone
eats meat and unless you are a
monk avoiding meat is fairly difficult.
level
4
4 points·4 days ago
My biggest shock was seeing how much Tibetan
monks loved debating with me, the naive
western vegetarian, how much more compassionate it was to eat meat than
vegetables!
level
5
You should totally do a post on this and what you
took away from the experience. Sounds fascinating.
level
6
2 points·4 days ago
I’d be happy to! I’ll add it to the list.
Discussing western astronomy was really fun. Two
groups, both 100% sure of their positions, laughing at the funny beliefs of the
other group.
level
7
2 points·3 days ago
That sounds absolutely delightful. Please consider
sharing your experiences!
level
2
3 points·4 days ago
When you become aware in thought you become aware
in speech. When you become aware in speech you become aware in actions when you
become aware in action you become aware in dreams. And when you become aware in
dreams you become aware in the bardo between life and death
level
1
14 points·4 days ago
I think more people should understand this.
level
1
13 points·4 days ago
Absolutely agree. We are laypeople at the end of
the day but that isn't a bad thing. Just means applying the dhamma in more
varied situations!
level
1
10 points·4 days ago·edited 4 days ago
Good point. There are suttas for laypeople with
advice on money management and romantic relationships in the Tipitaka. This is
a pretty straight forward one that goes over the basic requirements for a lay
Buddhist: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.026.than.html
I just found this one: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.2.05.than.html
The Buddha also makes it clear that being a
layperson is not ideal lol.
level
2
Not ideal for
Arhatship. This is a very important point that feeds directly into what the OP is
pointing at.
level
1
11 points·4 days ago
I want to be a monk
level
2
3 points·4 days ago
You can do it!
level
1
Great advice, thanks.
level
1
I agree. As a convert, in a place with very little
buddhist presence, it actually took me a while to even discover that there is a
distinction between laity and monastics. It opened up my eyes so much, and I
realized there is a layman's vinaya I can follow.
I soon saw this monastic-esque vinaya being passed
on between laypeople. If there is an occasion, I talk of the layman's vinaya,
and I find my fellow western converts benefit very much from these talks. Many
suffer from regrets etc for living as a layperson and not being perfect all the
time. It is not beneficial, and the standards these people hold themselves to,
are not what Buddha actually taught.
level
2
2 points·4 days ago
I would like to know more about this layperson’s /
householder’s vinyana. Could you point me to a source I could read?
level
3
I can. Sigalovada Sutta is known as "the
layman's code of discipline" and is central to lay vinaya. But as you see,
there are many suttas for householders specifically. There are many more, often
the same story with different persons.
Digha Nikaya nr. 31, Sigalovada Sutta
Anguttara Nikaya nr. 4.255, Kula Sutta
Anguttara Nikaya nr. 4.60 - 62, Anana Sutta
Anguttara Nikaya nr. 5.177, Vanijja Sutta
Anguttara Nikaya nr. 5.41, Adiya Sutta
Anguttara Nikaya nr. 7.63, Bhariyā Sutta
Anguttara Nikaya nr. 8.26, Jivaka Sutta
Anguttara Nikaya nr. 8.54, Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja)
Sutta
Anguttara Nikaya nr. 11.13, Mahanama Sutta
Samyutta Nikaya nr. 3.19, Aputtaka Sutta
Samyutta Nikaya nr. 42.2, Talaputa Sutta
Samyutta Nikaya nr. 42.3, Yodhajiva Sutta
Khuddaka Nikaya nr. 5, Sutta Nipata nr. 1.6,
Parabhava Sutta
Khuddaka Nikaya nr. 5, Sutta Nipata nr. 2.14,
Dhammika Sutta
Khuddaka Nikaya nr. 5, Sutta Nipata nr. 2.4,
Maha-Mangala Sutta
level
4
2 points·2 days ago
Thank you. Very helpful.
level
1
3 points·3 days ago
I’ve always admired and studied Dipa Ma for this
reason... an accomplished practitioner who lived among the regular world. She’s
also a daily inspiration to me as a parent.
level
1
7 points·4 days ago
If you're stressing about whether you're devoted
enough or comparing yourself to Buddhist monks as if they're a heightened class
of people, I'd wager you're missing the whole point.
level
2
5 points·4 days ago
Which is OK, since missing the whole point is one
way to get the whole point.
level
3
0 points·4 days ago
Definitely agree. You could argue a total lack of
"englightenment" is the most natural way to go about things. The
monks know just as much about the meaning of life as an L.A. Instagram Model...
Which is nothing.
level
4
Neither "naturalness" or "knowing
the meaning of life" have anything to do with Buddhism.
level
4
4 points·4 days ago
I read somewhere that enlightenment is when your
answer to everything is “I don’t know” 🤣
level
1
6 points·4 days ago
Along with that I'd add, you are learning the
teachings thousands of years later than they were written and that counts for a
lot.
level
2
1 point·4 days ago
Very good point!
level
1
3 points·4 days ago
Such an important thing to keep in mind! Even as a
lay person visiting a monastery, keeping the 8 precepts is practically
effortless, and the whole place supports mindfulness and kindness like no where
else. It just isn't something that is easy to find in the outside world as lay
people, and it's so hard to keep more than the 5 precepts even on a temporary
basis, such as the uposatha practice.
level
1
3 points·4 days ago
Then what am I?
level
2
2 points·4 days ago
Awesome. You are awesome.
level
3
2 points·4 days ago
Let’s not get too crazy now...
level
4
3 points·4 days ago
"Some say he is a holy man. Others say he is a
shithead." - Principia Discordia
level
1
3 points·4 days ago
You can take part of that lifestyle when not in the
world. It is a good reminder. That within the world, to be involved in the
world. For example worldly responsibilities.
level
1
3 points·4 days ago
This is very healing for me, thank you for sharing.
level
1
But there's long been a theme in Westward dharma
transmissions, even put explicitly by Shunryu Suzuki, that Western (and
increasingly Japanese) Buddhists seem to exist in a hinterland between laity
and monastic. That makes sense, considering that the primary lay practices in
Buddhist cultures are generally dependant on a local Sangha, whereas monastic
practices are much more independently doable.
level
1
3 points·3 days ago
I really needed to hear this today. Thank you.
level
1
5 points·4 days ago
If you’re having trouble with meditative practices,
it can be useful to note that for most of history, Buddhist laypeople didn’t
meditate. It was only a practice of monastics—and not even for all of them, or
at least not the central practice for all of them.
level
1
2 points·4 days ago
Kind of a question to follow-up with this thought?
Have monks likely had past lives as laypeople?
level
2
7 points·4 days ago
We have been reborn again and again since
beginningless time.
The answer is undoubtedly that they have.
level
1
2 points·4 days ago
This is really helpful to remember. If we too had a
set schedule with no room for deviation we too could do everything "monk
like". Its the thing that makes me want to be a monk sometimes, but I also
have to balance out that I have other equally important callings in this life.
level
1
2 points·4 days ago
You are not a giraffe.
level
2
2 points·4 days ago
Can’t argue with that.
level
1
2 points·4 days ago
Ok
level
1
2 points·4 days ago
This. This. This.
level
1
Everyone that is a lay person or becoming Buddhist
or interested in Buddhism needs to take a moment and think about this post.
This is very true!
level
1
2 points·4 days ago
yes i am
level
2
2 points·3 days ago
Yes you are.
level
1
2 points·3 days ago
All can think about when I hear the
"monk" is my mother jokingly suggest I move to Thailand with extended
family and become a monk (I really dont think she was joking, she tried her
hardest to shelter me from the harshness of the world but I was too rebellious
to listen). I used to side eye her when she would suggest such a thing, but
knowing what I know and experiencing what I have experienced maybe she was onto
something.
level
1
2 points·3 days ago
I used to hear lay people who lived alone tell the
monks “I live just like a monk” and if they meant it seriously one of the monks
would sometimes shake his head and point out that the monks sit formal
meditation at least four hours a day, so you shouldn’t expect to achieve the
same results in lay life. You can do a lot but in my experience it’s hard to
manage even two hours a day as a lay person even when you are single and live
as simply as you can. As OP suggests, practise as well as you can but recognise
the conditions are not as supportive.
level
2
2 points·3 days ago
Is it not possible to achieve the same 'results' in
20 minutes as you can in 4 hours? So there is an absolute time frame and set
pattern that must be followed to get prescribed results? How fast does
Enlightenment come? What is the real difference between hard and easy? What is
the difference between 20 minutes and 4 hours where Enlightenment is concerned.
How is it predictable? Where does the certainty come from? Seems a lot of
assumptions are being made about some kind of universal path that fits and works
the same in all instances, with all people, in time frames presumed to be
definitive in every case. Truth-- you may or may not achieve the same results,
but similar or better results are as possible either with lay or monk's
practice in long AND short time frames. Which begs the question: what are
results, how and who defines them, and by what measure are they calculated?!?!
lol Sorry, it depends on the independent mind of each individual how and in
what time frame they 'progress'. There is only that. Monk, lay? Doesn't matter.
level
3
3 points·3 days ago
I know what you mean. But is there practice? Are
there results? Effort is one of the elements of the eightfold path.
level
4
2 points·3 days ago·edited 3 days ago
Some require more or less effort depending on each
person's inherent individual differences in intelligence (and other factors)and
the efficient use of their faculties put towards understanding and progress.
While effort is required, how much effort is not a universal constant in all
cases with all practitioners. Practice may progress more or less for some as
compared to others with the same effort. It's impossible to universally define
what progress is...or how much effort will be required.
level
5
2 points·3 days ago
Sure, I don’t think there’s any contradiction here.
level
6
3 points·3 days ago·edited 3 days ago
I'm making an argument that doesn't assume that
monastic life is superior to lay life. I just don't see that as an absolute.
Monks may just need more structure to foster discipline than perhaps lay people
who decide to opt out of a monastic path. I think they, who may already be
experienced in discipline, have advantages in some ways where monastics have
advantages in others. Experience in ordinary life lends itself to insight on
its own. Monastic life my have the structure and quietude for in depth
examination and contemplation, but lack the organic inspiration of hardship,
stressors of lay life that cause introspections that are just as profound, just
as valid, often unexpected epiphanies that lead to near instant Enlightenment,
like lightning striking from just a word or unexplainable instances of pure
awareness. I don't think that there is really any great distinction between lay
and monk. Monks are people, just as householders are using the same tools each
with advantages and disadvantages each of their own. As well as individual
differences that play a role as well. I'm not sure why I feel the need to
hammer this point home. I just think it's a false and unnecessary distinction
to say a Monk's path is better, easier, faster or somehow garners more success
in some way than the lay path. Lay implies not expert, or nor educated, or not
academic enough, like what you find in the arrogance of the 'professional'
classes that assume a degree means that no one can possibly be as expert as
they, because they took a more formal path. The truth is everyone has access to
all the information and books that any academic has read, and can read every
one of those sources and gain an equal understanding as these 'professionals'.
There is no monopoly on information and knowledge and the professional class
has less meaning and assumed credibility than ever before. If you can read, you
as a layperson, if you are willing to apply the effort, can attain to the same
'expertise' as any monk or venerated teacher. You are your greatest teacher.
Sorry to be somewhat preachy, and I'm not sorry too. lol Hierarchy is helpful
but not the of all end all in every endeavor. That is all.🙏
level
1
2 points·3 days ago
There are some monks that do post here you know.
level
2
1 point·3 days ago
You are so right.
level
1
7 points·4 days ago
Excellent excuse for laypeople to not give more
than what they could.
Ever since I stopped listening to the
"laypeople arent demanded to be celibate, or to quit music or
Netflix" my life has become much more better
So totally disgree with OP.
level
2
You are right.
level
2
Well, laypeople as a fact are not. Nobody denies
that the bhikkhu life reaps greater rewards on the path, but not being able to
live a monastic life as a layperson is not a reason to feel bad or wrong.
level
3
1 point·3 days ago
What are the greater rewards? The layman has the
same faculties as the monk. The conditions under which they practice are
irrelevant. The householder and the monk support and enhance each others
practice. One is not superior or inferior to the other. The robe is
superficial. The rewards for both layman and monk are the same. Both are
working to achieve similar ends and both paths are equally attainable. Profound
insights are found in the struggles and hardships of ordinary life, as much, if
not more than the quietude of the monastery. I'd go so far as to say that, it
was through tribulation before the founding of the Sangha that the insights of
the Dharma were (re-)discovered by Buddha. Later through his effort in sitting
he was able to bring it out in articulable form for the rest of us...and
eventually his followers which became the Sangha organized and ordered it, gave
it structure for the purpose of easier dissemination and efficient practices.
Maybe for the better, maybe not. The trials of life as a layman is as inspiring
towards Truth as any Sutra in any monastery, read and practiced by any monk on
earth.
level
4
Well yes, potentially the rewards are the same, but
to most people it is not the same in practise.
level
5
1 point·3 days ago
What makes you so sure? It doesn't take constant
reading and practice to see into truth. Enlightenment and Dharma, meditation
existed before Sangha or the organized religion we know now. It was the mind of
an ordinary man working on his own, after being dissatisfied with the dead ends
provided by his teachers that inspired Buddha to trust his own insights. It was
not a monk that gave him this, it was not a monastery. It was hardship and
suffering that inspired him to his willful determination to find it in himself
instead of outside sources. There are countless examples of this in history. It
is not institutions that make first discoveries, it is individuals first, that
have epiphanies who share them with others that eventually become a body of
knowledge, not the other way around.The householder/layman and his/her life
experiences and hard earned insights should not be underestimated or judged as
inferior.
level
6
Buddha founded the sangha to give people the best
circumstances under which to practise. This does not mean a layperson is
inferior, on the contrary laypersons are needed to provide for the monastics.
The lay life is not conducive to going as far on
the path as the monastic life, but it is possible to even reach the end goal as
a layperson. The Tipitaka contains examples of this.
Regarding the Buddha, I would like to point out
that he did in fact leave his householder life behind in search of nibbana.
level
7
2 points·3 days ago·edited 3 days ago
Buddha indeed left his householders life as an
independent individual seeker, but not as a monk in any organized Sangha. Buddha
didn't originally want to found the Sangha as such in the beginning, as I
recall. He understood how corruptible and egoistic organized religious efforts
often become, how rigid and dogmatic. He didn't even think it was worth while
to teach at first. He didn't think anyone or at least most people would
understand it. He facilitated the organization of the Sangha at the request of
his followers for the most part. He taught the interested, those who were also
seekers, and his following grew. Sangha came into existence more or less
organically, and Buddha saw the need to make sure the integrity of the Dharma
remained intact, not deluded by egoism over time by those who might seek
status, credibility through authority, claiming superior knowledge unjustifiably...so,
Buddha established the rules of the Sangha. Not as a necessity, but to keep
lines straight, the propagation accurate, in keeping with the truths he
expressed. I, personally, see the individual mind as the only condition
necessary for discerning the Dharma, and no outside source is more credible or
even as effective or efficient. Sangha is helpful, but not the of all, or even
an absolute necessity. Mind is where it began, mind is where it ends.
level
2
9 points·4 days ago
Monastic life is an accelerated path to
enlightenment.
Non-monastic life just needs the eight-fold path to
attain enlightenment. No need to criticize the choices of laypeople.
I am glad you found a path that works for you, friend.
Metta.
level
3
1 point·3 days ago·edited 3 days ago
Are there monks that never attain enlightenment
after a lifetime of monastic life? I'm sure there probably are. Maybe they
attain much knowledge but never see through even after a lifetime of practice.
If so, why didn't his/her monastic life accelerate progress? It is presumptive
to say that monastics are accelerated to Enlightenment simply because they
chose the exterior conditions provided by a monastery. Or to imply that those
conditions are necessarily conducive to success. All is mind, not monk.
level
2
4 points·4 days ago
So glad you found your peace! Fortunately the path
is so diverse that we can take totally different routes and arrive at the very
same destination.
level
1
3 points·4 days ago
I literally am.
level
2
1 point·3 days ago
Touché.
level
1
2 points·4 days ago·edited 4 days ago
Since the mind is where practice takes place, being
monk or householder/layman doesn't really matter. The controlled environment is
the mind, not the exterior conditions you find yourself in. That's just karma,
happenstance. The path is the same. Subjective judgments of monk or lay are
irrelevant. The path in either case is an individual one, yours alone. The
tools used are the same. There is no inferior or superior condition for
practice if the proper perspective is based in the 4NT8FNP! The work is done in
the mind, that's your environment.
level
1
1 point·4 days ago
Yeah, I thought one of the core tenants of Buddhism
was the Middle Way. Don't forget that
level
2
The middle way of the Noble Eightfold Path refers
to two very specific teachings in
Buddhism.
1. Annihilationism
(the belief that life ends at death) versus Eternalism (the belief in an
eternal afterlife)
"The world in general, Kaccaayana, inclines to two views, to
existence or to non-existence.But for him who, with the highest wisdom, sees
the uprising of the world as it really is, 'non-existence of the world' does
not apply, and for him who, with highest wisdom, sees the passing away of the
world as it really is, 'existence of the world' does not apply.
2) Asceticism versus indulgence in sense pleasures
"Bhikkhus, these two extremes ought not to be cultivated by one
gone forth from the house-life. What are the two? There is devotion to
indulgence of pleasure in the objects of sensual desire, which is inferior,
low, vulgar, ignoble, and leads to no good; and there is devotion to
self-torment, which is painful, ignoble and leads to no good.
The Middle Way is not is a sort of "All things
in moderation" philosophy. Which while I mostly agree with the
conventional sentiment, is often misapplied to Buddhism.
level
3
1 point·4 days ago
It is a sort of though. Everything comes down to
desire and indulgence, the breath, posture, food. You can have all these
psychedelic visions, but they aren’t satisfactory as just regular adorning the
Buddha....deep breaths are encouraged, but some people are over tense, thinking
that is preferred.....no, deep breath, but it’s still a relaxed thing. Eat
enough food to sustain you, don’t eat 3 bowls of ice cream.
level
4
You are right that in meditation the 'tuning of the
lute' applies - too tight and it breaks and too loose and you get no sound.
However, the Middle Way is a term with specific
canonical sources as cited.
The reason it is an error to apply it to the
teachings in general is that new folks and people without teachers can misapply
it to the realm of sense pleasures and other indulgences. They can also
misunderstand what is meant by Right Effort and sense restraint and all the way
down the line because it depends on the users definition of moderation. But the
Buddha was quite specific and it's better to look to his teachings.
While it's an okay rule of thumb for conventional
life (which I acknowledged in my original comment) it is, at best, a well-intentioned
simplification that misses crucial subtleties.
It is both easier and more conducive to clarity of
mind in one's progress to understanding truth to maintain a healthy balance.
Residing in extremes is hard to maintain, which becomes a distraction and
impediment, even harmful, inducing suffering, and requires much wasted effort
to reside in the extreme condition. Concentration is wasted in this
maintenance. Whereas, The Middle Way requires little effort or force of mind,
leaving your energies available to the purpose of practice, progressing to
Enlightenment. Not too tight, not too loose. Not indulgent, not depriving. That
is the efficient utility of The Middle Way path. This is an incomplete
perspective, one can delve deeper.
level
1
level
1
Telling yourself you're not a monk is the surest
way to not become one. I'm a monk in my own reality and no one can tell me
otherwise. :)
No comments:
Post a Comment